greetings everyone welcome to another brownie debates live
we are doing this tonight on a Thursday rather than a Friday
because
we had to skip it last week which means you know we're
going to be also doing our regularly scheduled
for Friday Night Fights tomorrow night as well oh boy I got a
frog in my throat I'm terribly sorry about that
anyway I hope you're all having a great night so today today
going to be talking about why realism is
shunned in fan fiction now this was a topic suggestion from
somebody on the panel tonight mr. malcontent and
I think it's a pretty loaded assertion that comes with a lot
of questions
so what I did here is I gathered up some of my other friends
who are really good at well or understanding understanding
fanfiction
and let me see here oh you know something
hang on a second I'm really am using the wrong
wrong
oh okay I put the wrong title in the I forgot to change the title
on the
the on the on the text layer so I got to fix that while I'm
talking here anyway
anyway we're going to we're going to talk about why
real reality or realism
is shunned in in fan fiction so but before we get to that
I got to give a shout out to my $10 and up patrons
these guys while three of them are in this chat joining us on
the panel tonight
mr. DJ Skywalker malcontent the author of the Equestrian
City here over series himself as well as Kyle Christensen and the
rest are princess other Blossom Shady Oak Ministry said McElroy
Auto night
Emerald Spencer sodden girder Cinco Janine Kellogg Stephen A
Wilson wreck
rain princess Sunshine Sparkle bootleg barred the silly frog
Durock 720 and that's that list so
so if we're off to a little bit of a rocky start
tonight and I apologize for that but malcontent how are you doing
tonight sir sir
I'm doing pretty well Rocky needs up you need a moment they
sound like your throats kind of scratching on you sir
yeah I haven't I haven't used it all day so I've got a little bit
of a I've got a little bit of frog stuck in there I think I'm
clear now okay all right you know I'm doing fine I just I
didn't realize the three of your
panel or actually part of the higher Echelon tears
yeah that's a that's
I mean that's how it goes sometimes sometimes yeah
Kyle has not been on the show before so I it when he said he
wanted to come on I was ecstatic to have him on that's that's one
of the cool things about being on being on the patreon in
general is
you get to you get to have that you get to come on the show but
that's enough of the Shameless plug in certain ways that might
um so I'm glad you're doing all right what made made you want to
2 choose this topic now before you answer
that but I should also throw out there that this is It's
a little bit of a follow up topic because we've had
something similar we talked about the you know
realism in fan fiction before and if it's a if it's a good
thing or not and I think it was around the same time or shortly
after that that you recommended tonight's topic so what made you
you want to go this topic tonight tonight
well it actually just it was one of those moments where we were
all throwing out ideas one evening you know what should
what should some more topics be ended it came to me I
had just gotten done having a rather
rather well I discussion about
some of the ideas that I had put forward and some of my universe
so
okay struck me that you know something just out of curiosity
what was the
consensus on that previous topic now I think it's a very it's a
very subjective matter but we'll get deeper into that as we get
into the conversation
tonight so why don't why don't you set our terms
for us and see if
we can at least all agree
or at least get on the same page or perhaps even just understand
where you're coming from so what is realism to you you malcontent
to me the realism that I'm speaking about is
where we don't really pull it as many punches as we generally
would on say say what let's just use for the Anchor Point but My
Little Pony show itself now granted it's got its directed
audience that supposed
to be at but once you're past that and the fan fiction well
you're really able to kind of expand on what you can do you
can up I don't want to say
up Stakes but you can actually
redefine what what exactly you can throw into the mix when it
comes to either antagonist protagonist
situations things like that you really don't have as many walls
as
say the poor writers for the show did okay so what would you
what kind of walls would you say the the writers for the show ran
into well
one of the things that I've
I've noticed with the with the show I had gone back and
reviewed a little of it this last week here and
some of the things that I noticed that it was clear what
some of it
was referencing but they weren't probably able to let's use the
what use Apple Jacks parents for one thing I mean we don't go
into the full idea
of what either happened or or what you know
don't come out and say what happened to them and it's almost
like there's a
gorilla in the room it feels like through the whole series in
my opinion and again keep in mind
that's my opinion well I suppose I could give you that I've said
it myself that
friendship is Magic could have done a bit of a better job of
explicitly tackling us sir what I called circle of life circle
of life
topics is should be you know pregnancy pregnancy birth Earth
is sickness death things like that so with all of that in mind
I'm going to open up the floor here
does anybody have anything to add or take away from what
malcontents said about about what realism is let's start
with death Dev Dev for that Dev rest while hello I'm actually
here
yep hello there and I gotta say the weight the definition used
it sounds to me you more subscribe
describing like suspension of disbelief or even I'm not relate
so much realism but just the
like you said the boundaries of the show then go into because
like I don't think realism is
really hampered by audience targeting it just comes down to
like the amount of detail maybe you want to go into a such a gun
perhaps too like the ins and outs of what
character how characters May interact I want to start that
off first
first because it sound like like because first the realism
definition to me would be like how much can we apply to our
reality in a situation like
how much are we comparing it to like a certain real life
situation and how much of it is fantastic
fantastical
okay can you clarify what at all so like when we're talking about
realism like it's hard to
apply its kind of from the outside it might be hard to
apply that to a show about candy-colored horses as they
always as a lot of people like to describe MLP but also to I
guess you can say something like
recently that's a Hot Topic is Star Wars and it's mean movies
because like you have people throwing around oh it's a space
where there isn't it says
leave that space where it's at 2/10 of our children stop taking
it's not realistic but then you have like other arguments to
like is this real how real is this supposed to be how serious
I was supposed to take it and like
even with a show like
MLB it's trying to tell those grounded stories Slice of life
stories relating less than 2 its audience like that right so so
are we just going to say it's a silly show about horses like
courses and all that blah blah blah okay so ultimately do you
agree or disagree with
malcontents assessment
like I agree I just don't know if I would call that realism it
just sounds like I
want to say suspension this believe and I try and of trying
to remember the work for but like it's definitely that
intended audience kind of thing okay yeah like what like the
subject matter is that they will go into then because like the am
Opie's take on death
was tanks for the Memories won't yeah I've stages of grief that
was it
yeah
yeah so like they won't go into the actual real topic of death
old sugar coat in a way to still
make a metaphor for instead okay but you one could argue it's
still realistic because it's going through the five stages of
grief
right so some of what you said there leads me to want to ask a
follow-up question and malcontent but before I do that
let's continue down the line here
here Kyle how are
you doing tonight I am doing fair enough how about you good
thanks for thanks for coming on to the show it's good to it's
good to have you so do you have anything to add or take away
from from the definition of realism as it's been given so
far far so far no but I just want to preemptively put a
massive caveat over things that's okay basically my entire
potential issue here
cynicism and realism or not the same thing I that that's
basically my
entire beginning middle and end of this oh god well I hope you
got more than that is is the kind I guess we're done that I
got a good night everybody yeah we got a whole no not we got a
whole nother 45 minutes to fill out her I'm not
watch this is how I'm not making a lot of this up as I go you
know that's good that's what we're all doing man don't worry
about it welcome to the show yeah that basically yeah
all right now comes now since Kyle hasn't
usually watch these shows we got a break into a musical number
take it away
any gym at every 15 minutes so DJ now you now you have
to tell us what you agree or disagree
disagree with Malcolm tons assertion with but you but you
have to do it in the form of a do it with Kyle
nope you remember but you banned me from singing
on your Channel oh really really
I didn't like my singing voice as such I was not allowed so it
sounds like something I would do
yes it does now gentlemen gentlemen
I have the mallee we're going to stop here all right so so DJ
break it down for us
I think I'm kind of in Dennis Camp it does it doesn't
sound like the realism that I'm seeing really
what Mouse talking about it sounds more like bringing real
real world elements
elements into it which realism I'm at least based on what the
definitions I'm seeing here is the quality or
fact of representing a person thing or situation accurately or
in any way that that is true to life life which I don't know
that just sounds
that sounds like real isn't me but it doesn't necessarily
doesn't completely sound
like what Matt was talking about really I don't know I think I'm
just more in devs camp at this moment right
so so I'm sort of in a camp of realism can have a very broad
spectrum of definition so
if you're dealing
with the situation where people are you know really throwing
insults at each other and really just looking to start a fight
well you ask yourself in that situation would these
kinds of characters come to blows and you know so realism to
me
means
it comes down to two because
what I've always believed as a writer is that you can have you
can have your
characters be as inhuman physically as
possible they could be like the Greek pantheon or the door or
you know
our modern superheroes anything like that but what a good idea
idea the human mind it is really only capable of writing about
things that it that it knows
and and projecting its own experiences so so it's as long
as your characters are believable you've got the
foundation of a good story so realism is very important when
it comes
to when it comes to your characters but when it
comes to your setting it becomes a lot more more subjective so
you trying to do something like a like a Jason Bourne movie that
was meant to be more realistic in terms of like how the
universe would function there and how does it compare to like
real life
Espionage scenarios or are you working with something like
a soft magic system like friendship is Magic where
anytime
something happens that would be physically impossible to happen
in real life you can just slap the magic term on it
and plot convenience becomes much easier or are you
dealing with a hard magic system like something like what are ya
Avatar I was trying not to use it because I'm on
Avatar all the all the time like it
almost as much as
I'm on friendship is Magic but Star Wars is better better
example of a hat
hat
hard on my own stream so will will will unpack that
later but are we different show that's oh yeah so um that's
what realism means to me and I've never seen that shunned
personally so much as I've seen a
poor execution of either realism in the characters
or a poor execution of some sort of you know abstract concept
within how the universe itself is supposed to function now does
anybody take any issue with anything I just said I actually
do want to follow up on you that because I can cite some examples
I think so like you brought up like characters acting within
our settings like I can think of a recent little debate that
happened with the movie called a quiet place where the premise of
the movie is that there are monsters are Ultra ultra you
can't read
monsters that kill you if they really hear you it basically has
really to be quiet all the time and so everyone's
taking the quiet steps everything they got muffled
everything in the house and all that but the movie
at one point represents a scene where there's a waterfall there
and because of the sound of Rushing Water they can talk and
even scream and the Monsters don't come after them so a lot
of people have brought the criticism well why don't these
guys just moved their house and everything to this waterfall
there there to live a better life and a lot of people have
just said well if they did that then there wouldn't be a move
feed never there's no movie then yeah
so like it's dismissing the quote unquote wheel is on why
these characters not acting within the setting
why are they not taken advantage of the thing that gives them
such an advantage then so there's that realism break in
the air but it's a lot of people just dismisses this as like I
said before then there wouldn't be a movie why you you saying
this why we wouldn't have these action scenes
and and then another example I think I can bring up is
Star Wars actually we're we're in Last Jedi you have a
character use hyper to basically
take out an entire fleet which
leads to them intimately
ahead admittedly visually and audio selling seen But it
basically breaks the universe with how you
get it how space files will then be done in there so the question
becomes why hasn't anyone done this before
and how you're going to write your Universe universe going
forward in this this and then a lot of people said why are you
being so well I've so Nick thinking this is awesome don't
question it it's just magic in space
yeah and that that that's one of the main problems is that people
don't seem to have a respect for established lure in something
like that if you take the time to actually write out a universe
to that a length there is
some respect that should be paid to it not just I would like to
sell tickets but that's where Van fiction and movies Dipper
you know kind of related to that can I take another shot at
my starting thing because I just remembered something sure go for
it oh yeah
yeah okay so play a lot of like alternate history mods
for various games and you know with anything that changes
history there's
various amounts of how realistic is this and how much did we kind
of
push to get where we're trying to go
Kaiser like the entire idea is Germany wins World War One where
do we go from here the Second Battle of you London that is
just flat-out impossible everybody knows this but we need
it to get here
here so it's just kind of accepted or a different one
that's actually probably a lot worse with the realism the New
Order has a Nazi Victory which the writer
flat-out admits yeah there there's no way they should have
gotten as far as they do but that's accepted because
basically as soon as the game starts realism crashes into them
hard hard some right that's a matter of plot convenience then
exactly if the setting that they're put upon sorry about
that girl but I mean I'm with you and that that that when
you're thrust into that situation you're absolutely
bombarded with a brand new reality with new rules for all
intensive purposes not just basically like these were in
this case yes
yeah something like there is sort of a well that's not very
realistic that
insert thing here happened yes but we needed it to get to the
starting point and I've got a cool story to tell
I'm giving him a minute you made a giant mechanical mechanical
dog so I think it's call out the door about that time so like
actually I want to jump in here because I brought this up before
they come I do think part of this does come back to
suspension of disbelief and I do I don't remember who said this
like basically your premise is where you put most of the
specific suspension of disbelief like so like what if America
Lost World War II like that's where that's your premise and
that's how you try to blind people bit by into that then
you're at the make sure you keep everything I
I guess as soon as you can to keep them in the store and not
so you're taking as many Liberties as you want to there's
all front there's also a consideration
that you know sometimes people Livia a complaint against the
story of oh you know this
isn't this isn't realistic because these characters
should be smarter than this so you know let's say we get it we
put our characters in a situation where they
do something stupid and everybody in universe and out
out is just as asking why but that
would assume so every horror movie ever right yeah because so
what you're hiding
here is that everybody is logical all the time
where exactly almost nobody in almost nobody that I actually
matches that description so if anything having someone
act like an idiot occasionally is a little bit more realistic
so I
want to add this this question to my little rant here before we
transition
into the next segment Kyle you would opened with with cynicism
and realism are not the same things can you tell us
what exactly differentiates the two of them and can you
offer us any ideas as to why they get mixed up with each
other so often
an excellent question I guess because because okay so so
is cynicism cynicism obviously is everything will go wrong all
the time
like just no matter what happens you know - angles law anything
that can go wrong well in the worst possible way realism yes
sometimes everything goes to crap but not always and
but since you know people are a lot more focused on when things
go to hell
and back back
that wording can I help you there I think I can help you
give examples
now I'll tell you what he's describing sounds like pessimism
versus cynicism okay we're supporting if we're talking the
difference between pessimism and cynicism we're splitting hairs
send them arms and I don't have I don't have enough hairs
to split so no we're that's true we're talking about the
difference between realism and cynicism so Dev how
how about you how about you pick it up here so like I think the
difference is as mad as he was trying to
say like citizens mm is like basically taking like you're
taking someone and just dragging
their face through the gravel where realism is just giving the
audience like are realistic tape but not just all the bad but
actually the good there I think like since I'm going to use this
example on purpose because the chat brought it off the cynicism
is what you get an episode you citizens mmm it's like down and
out from The Powerpuff Girls I think realism gives you an
episode the the memories
cousin the the time it had episode you have the Powerpuff
goes to it go to a quote unquote
real City and everything just goes horribly from them surely
like all the bad stereotypes of a city disgusting City and all
that and then work them working with a real
quote unquote regulations and cops and all that I would agree
with that town and out was a very good example of how you
need to not go forward in such a way that you over whelmed
whelmed your characters who intentionally doing it let's
loading that that stacking the deck and I would agree with that
and then like realism I like I said you get something like
tanks for the Memories where
even though it's still going through its own filter and all
you're still getting this five stages of grief even though
that you don't have someone dying or maybe let's see another
episode I think one of my favorites would be
do print has this dream of magic sheep where it's going through
like self-guilt and
and people blaming themselves selves then well let's not want
to go into the self harm they expect their but like how it's
real at someone may want to put it feel like they weren't
punished enough enough
DJ I haven't heard from you in a little bit do you have anything
you want to add to this everything has been kind of hit
on the net in a hit on the head so far
I'm just kind of enjoying the conversation at the moment the
next Parts is where things are going to probably start picking
up is so that's a good spot to transition here because I
there's another question I wanted to ask
Mel because so use you made the suggestion after
having what you described as a spirited debate as to
the the merits of your writing if it was that about right
I would say that was a reasonable facsimile of what I
said got the so
so and then you so you made the suggestion and the first
question that came to my head when I
saw the suggestion is is it though so is
realism really shunned so so Mel why don't you tell us as much as
you can about your experience and will springboard off from
there sure when I first started writing out my series
I got a lot of
feedback both privately and publicly that I should either
quit what I was doing or why it was
I was adding too much it wasn't the wood wasn't realism and it's
eluding me right
now I was adding too much they were trying to imply that I was
adding too much angst with
the sake of Banks and it felt rare liar excetera excetera they
had not actually used that term until much later I was actually
not even familiar with a grim dark but that there was a lot of
push back immediately on how I had treated -
how I had done a few other things and it seemed like it
struck more
toward someone's perceived reality than it was the actual
reality of
the universe that I had taken him a great deal of time to set
up and show you where where the schism a point was
okay so and have you done a lot of reading
outside of your own story like how let me ask you this straight
up how
cultured are you in terms of not just not just film fiction but
fan fiction in general do you
consume a lot of it it in my younger years I actually ran one
of the premier
fanfiction sites before we went into automation so I had to read
everything and then
summarize and then post it so I've seen both kind of
ends of good and both like someone wrote this in about 10
minutes
that's one of the things that kind of kept me in the whole
idea of fan fiction because I saw what people were doing
and how they enjoyed enjoyed writing their own spin on
everything and it was fascinating to see all these
worlds kind of move about in a Multiverse so I would have to
say I'm rather I jump from the Sonic University to the
Powerpuff Girl universe and a couple of other different ones
that we just don't want to go to go into right now it would just
take too long but the I would say that yeah I've
been around the block a couple of times Okay so
then
then have you seen roughly the same reaction that you got for
your story when it came to other people's stories
across across genres so we're talking
drama we're talking romance for talking action we're talking
comedy when realism gets involved have you seen a
consistent reaction to how they reacted to your your story
quite frankly this is the first Community or fandom that has
been
as responsive to
anything of the matter the previous ones that I were in you
know we come across such
here's some spelling errors or here's some things I think that
you've done wrong but not as much as I immediately got
as a pushback it kind of felt like I ran over somebody's
turtle so this is a very spirited
spirited and very
and as far as fans going all right before I pass this
question off I want to add something here real quick is I
think the Brony fandom in general is very saturated and
spoiled when it comes to
when it comes to fanfiction and I don't mean that in a in a bad
way although
I know that those words tend to have a negative connotations to
them it's that we've got so many
people writing fan fiction that that and we've got some
legitimately amazing Stories We you know we've got
past sins we've got Fallout Equestria we've got you know
these things and and when you stack those up and then you
compare it to something else that's what you know
I'll use an equally famous
example here you compare the quality of the original Fallout
Equestria or past sins or shoot anything
by pen stroke really too
to my little she and it's very hard for it to stack up so with
with so much
good out there it becomes easier to discern
things that are of a lower quality now DJ is realism
shunned in fan fiction in your experience what do you think
in my experience I wouldn't say so so
I've seen a lot of stories where commenters were confused at
some of the stuff that happens saying like I've seen comments
and upset that doesn't seem realistic that doesn't seem
like how the characters would act in this scenario so if
anything I've seen a lot of people that are more
for it what Mel is experienced it sounds more to me another
thing I've seen a lot is a lot of fans don't like when things
are
out of character from how they're portrayed in the show
and those
get very vocal at times I've seen that so so when they're not
acting
how the those fans would believe they should be acting based on
the show
especially if they're like their favorite character that is going
to draw their anger and I think that made it agree with that I
haven't read a story so I can't say much to to it well I don't
know see what we're talking about fan fiction in general not
just in fiction I have this is story
I was gonna say
what I'm saying in relation to his story since I don't know how
his characters are
right Kyle what do you think I think it's not
again again I think that cynicism is shunned at a bit
and the reason being that it's it's it's 20
the internet and fan fiction has been a thing since at least the
mid 2000s whatever dark painful
needlessly Grimm thing you can think of it's been done a lot
lot do you think do you think that the stage in audience
has a has a factor in this at all so we've got something like
like friendship is Magic which is meant to bring a lot of
positivity and
then people sort of twist it whenever they write something
that we would consider consider grimdark then you've got
something like like say Batman hmm is meant to be
more gritty and more
violent and a lot less positive or you've got we I could
probably
use like a video game example like any Call of Duty
you know before the recent ones anyway where there where the aim
of making those games was making them as realistic as possible
is a fan Ian for something like those friends
for something like friendship is Magic or Power Girls when it
when it twists what it's supposed to be
is it going to be received differently by something of a
different franchise that is already geared to toward
something that's more Grim dark or anything that lets let's
broaden the question in general anything
that goes against the tone of the source material
what do you think there is definitely a
space a place though for those Grim dark interpretations like I
mean you
brought up Fallout Equestria I mean there is a fine line but I
feel like between the
citizen grimdark versus the just
buying the premise of like what if I mix these two franchises
together and when you bring up Batman too I feel like there
is a place for the animated Batman where it's still violent
but you don't have like
gritty
gritty like like if you haven't seen that cool'n'quiet yeah
right there I like that example yes I know interrupt you for a
second here I'm very sorry but I brought up Fallout Equestria I
could have brought up that season 7 episode
where where or season 8 episode where Fluttershy literally
turned into a a tree
or was that it was about to turn into a tree I'm sorry I forgot
the name the title of the episode Uncle all like Harold
history
say that again DJ Zecora was the one turning into a tree right
that which I did start to get sick at the end that she was
yeah I think what that is over some horrifying implications
right so
I'm sorry - in you with what you were saying so like I think
there's a
difference between difference between like adding grimdark and
then turning something into a torture
porn so like there's always that fine line I feel like there's a
difference between like making something real risk more
realistic or adding more dark elements versus turning into all
grit way
you suddenly are just neck deep in it and can't escape it so do
you think that matters oh yeah yeah go ahead Kyle basically the
difference between the original Fallout Equestria of what
happens when
we combine tiny horses and nuclear war and and project
which is just one point eight million words of how much pain
can Blackjack be put through
okay so so let me reiterate the initial question here
does The franchise for the fifth for the faction
for the fan fiction that action yeah I stuttered
does the franchise for the fanfiction matter when it comes
to twisting is the tone of its source material I don't think it
does but like I said it always comes down to the execution
between a gritty take versus a torture porn
what do you think yeah pretty much it has
to be competent I mean moving out probably the
most lab experiment thing I can think of for this would
be the difference between The Dark Knight Returns in the Dark
Knight strikes again because they're both
they're both dark they're both Batman they're both written by
the same guy one of
them was really good the other one is awful awful
hmm
it can be dark but it has to be competent first dark for the
sake of dark is not yeah it's not something you want to do
and going back I'm sorry and so I never actually got around
round the start answering the question
too because like I don't think it's so much realism is shunned
because I think people conflate realism with that citizens mm
that dark for the sake of dark it just so much more easier to
say it's realism because we're adding more dark and grimy
grimy
which to a lot of franchises like friendship is Magic could
just be automatically interpret as realism because Suddenly It's
not bright and colorful cartoony and DJ what do you think
does does the franchise matter in terms of the audience
reaction to you know whenever you twist the tone of the source
material I think in a general term it does typically when I
when I have
come across fanfiction it so this pursuit of it is
always been wanting more of what they were enjoying and speaking
from personal experience that's what I went
to fan fiction for was when I first discovered ponies I wanted
more ponies
so I went to film fiction and started reading and
as it
can can I'm not saying it doesn't have a place though it's
when the tone of a story is a lot different from the original
Source material what's going to happen is it's going to be in a
niche environment it's not going to be something that General
reader is probably going to be searching for
or even get into but there will be that's those small Pockets
where the interest is there all righty then uh does anybody have
anything they want
to add or take away from this from this part of the question
before we move
move on
nope that's nothing yeah the Crickets answered me yeah sound
yep so we've talked about whether or not
realism is really short and we've tried to define it
so let's see let's try to think about the times where we've seen
something try to be realistic and it not and it wasn't
received well by the
audience why let's see if we can figure that out
DJ can you come up with any examples of when something tried
to be realistic and was not well received by the audience
audience also as we will talk about Powerpuff Girls that comes
to mind one thing comes to mind but it's not out yet so I can't
really say for certain and the CW live
action Powerpuff Girls show oh good lord with the synopsis
being that the girls are tired of being
Heroes and felt like their childhood was stolen from them
they'd be correct
which is kind of something I'm not bad interested in seeing as
a Powerpuff Girls fan but
it's kind of kind of throws a little little more little too
much into a
show where the entire point was to see cute things beating
things up all right that was the entire premise for the Powerpuff
Girls
I say that like I don't think that audience matters but like
there's a difference between audience in the mainstream and
audience in fan fiction
territory
and what is the difference because I think I fans and
fanfiction will be interested in that CW premise but I think
in the real world where it's going to be released to a public
audience like that I don't think it's going
to be received as well at least for the for the expected result
anyway I don't know why but you just but the way you
describe that reminded me of that time that that Looney Tunes
tried to have some sort of
Sonic said am really dark
next loonatics Unleashed yeah and that would and that
absolutely awesome
actually saw that neither did I but I know about it and it looks
horrible Kyle you can kind of awesome Kyle can you can you
give us an example of when something tried to be more
realistic and it was not well received by the audience
audience I'm trying to think the closest thing to this I can
come up with is a piece of fan fiction I was reading that
involved
a lot of children characters and you know children can be
asses to each other and really that was the author's Best
defense for why these characters are behaving a horrible and
generally getting away with it what do they do
basically just some standard issue bullying and also Okay
so the idea behind this thing was a hidden changeling Village
this was
written around like season for so just roll with it and
like
basically the small bugs are the changelings are very clearly in
charge in this town even though it's supposed to be equal and
and that basically all the adults would never Lord that
over anybody else children as a different story and really the
best
the author was able to give is that children can be terrible
it's like that really doesn't help at these kids are acting
awful and when I like the story was starting to wind down okay
clearly I was supposed to have gotten
over how these kids are kind of bad by this point
all right this is what happens when I can't think of a better
example
it's a
perfectly that's a perfectly fine example but I think it goes
to show the subjective nature of these kinds of things
that it that it can be hard to pin down I can you tell us the
name of this this story
image calls respite and I'd like to say that besides this one bit
that just drove me up a wall
this was otherwise a really good story okay so what I think I'm
going to do
is I'm going to go check that out for myself after this dream
and and you know see just in generally how well it's written
because I'm building to with to a theory
of the Common Ground here but I want to get more examples for
for so let's move to me Mel is there any time that something
tried to be
more realistic and was poorly received received hi
I've been racking my brain and I can't really think of anything
course I'm a bit
more receptive on Alternate universes different settings
things like that I mean just listening to calm now that story
sounds absolutely fascinating because it sounds like a
commentary on both
lower and middle class attitudes toward each other you know and
this and this really even further drives home just how
subjective this type of thing can be
because myself one thing start getting into a Multiverse
I start losing interest which is why I was
highly skeptical of Equestria Girls when they came out I was
like oh gosh darn you're doing the
you're doing the Multiverse Theory I thought we were better
than that I changed my mind later on
but whatever Dev what do you got for me me well I would say
Man of Steel or Batman vs Superman has bajrang Bali said
in chat but I've never actually seen those movies so I can
comment but I will say my prime example as the Disney
live-action remakes and it's kind of like the different kind
of realism realism there are actually two because they mostly
just change it it's mostly just change from animated to live
action all that but the realism in that the aesthetic goes a
long way to taking out a lot of the heart and soul that because
like oh like the
the animated hands doesn't translate well to the Undead's
it doesn't translate well to The
Uncanny Valley of the CG that they're doing let's not forget
that those movies are still 85 animated between between the
green screens and the and the models of the characters for
God's sakes there's
absolutely no reason we could not have had a practical Beast
yeah most thought of quote unquote
by a factory makes us say yeah but now that that
you know last batch transition even though we're not really
making it quote unquote more realistic that transition and
I said it just takes away a lot of the impact that it would have
and they
were stuck in this uncanny valley then of trans trying to
translate that same story there DJ what were you having I like
you
and I'm like you brought up sorry I just want to finish this
like he brought up before like humans are hard-wired to try
to look into the familiar on the air love they know of and even
though we we went from the animated like
animals at all that to now the live you rethink we
connect to that more but because we're we're remaking this into a
more realistic
style now we're suddenly disconnected at once again we
have another disconnect like that
all right DJ what were you trying to say I just find it
funny The Lion King remake typically they advertise it as
live action yet there's not a single
live shot in the entire movie they remade The Lion King yeah
it came
up last this long that's awful and it's the highest grossing
animated movie of all time now oh that is sad there's not a
single
outdoor shot like all of it was made on blue-screen and
computers no there's nothing personal
peril Africa but there's not a single shot Mel I'm gonna start
calling you Patrick because
because
live under a rock I admit I am a little busy to see anything
that's Blockbuster these days right right about the movie yeah
anyway so let's see here we are have you answered the question
yet
like I said the D string and live-action remake so and I was
going to say that I'm mad that I didn't think about that myself
yeah and then like someone else brought up like I never seen
these movies I've made of steel and barium is assuming I think
the main reason those aren't
hated are not liked his cuz like they make it all like they try
to go into implications more of like Superman living with these
powers of the kid going through suffering and all that
but from what I can gather with the
criticisms is that they go too far and like trying to hammer
home the suffering and I like he like apparently he could have
saved his dad at one point but they go too far into you have to
keep your secret and all
that blah blah blah
and then King other things like that but like I said I can't
comment on especially in the
Batman vs Superman because I just never bothered with DC
until Joker came out right and so this
this plays into what I kind of wanted to say
to build into my conclusion of whether or not realism is really
shunned when it comes to
to fan fiction or perhaps perhaps even fiction in general
as I really don't think it is but I do think it boils down a
lot to what the individual in the audience happens to be
looking for and whether or not it happens too align with
their tastes of the moment but even more so it
depends on the execution of the author themselves
so when you got something that's just straight-up poorly written
then then
then trying to be you're trying to have more realism is just
going to feel hollow or it's going to
come off as just needlessly gritty or it's you know it's
really going to highlight the parts of your
plot or your characterization that don't make sense and
and make it all the more obvious so it really depends I'd say 80%
on the talent of the writer and
you know maybe even 20 percent would be generous
but you know it's still a considerable percentage of
whether or not
any given individual happens to be looking for that form of
entertainment at that moment does anybody disagree with
anything I just said said
I don't think I do like I actually wanted to bring this up
earlier because like I don't think realism is shunned in the
fanfiction sense but like the examples are brought up a floor
where there was content over people bring up criticism in a
quiet place and Star Wars movies it's like a lot of the
mainstream a lot of mainstream audiences
don't seem to like people bringing up like the realism
argument was that when it's questionable writing but it
seems like the D like the they try to go off at the extreme
example must be completely logical when you brought up like
the human element or
backward a quick select it seems like people go to the extreme
and they think realism like people must think perfectly but
the example I gave in that choir places like
why these characters in this setting where they're being so
careful not to make noise not take advantage of this thing
that basically covers up there noise and you don't have to
really live like this
anymore even though it'd be awkward that may I guess trads
transferred us stuff to that new area and it can apply to
characters to because you know you're dealing like I said at
the beginning of the stream it's very important to have
characters that are that are believable so ask yourself you
know how many times you see will say a sane person so like a
normal person that would fit into some form of archetype that
you might run into in your in your daily life like take it
like a motherly character for for instance you know you got
the character that cares very much
about the well-being of all the other surrounding cast and
you know might come off as a bit of
an egg sometimes if that same character were to just show up
in a party hat blowing a kazoo with a
with a bottle of Jack Daniels in one hand and just
going completely off the wall Would we not say okay okay what
led to ooh
moment and if there is nothing that led to this moment that the
you know they just had a complete 180 from one minute to
the next or one episode to the next or one chapter to the next
that might seem unrealistic does that seem to think
about that that that's where if you were to do something with
your example that's where you have to actually sell it and
tell them exactly you know maybe they
finally had some sort of nervous breakdown or something
psychological
psychological has or something like you you just have it happen
it has to be properly explained and
that's you do researching you things like that you can't just
have it happen so the list the the last question I want to ask
the stream tonight is so let's let's take into consideration
the times that realism
is not really shunned should it be be
like okay so if we've got something that that it takes
place in a fantasy setting and we
make an a you of it to take place in high school
should there be should that be shunned if we if we have a
character that's not really on like that is really unlike
everyone you've ever met in your life should they suddenly be
more grounded
you know so consider these things when answering the
question let's start with Dev for this one sorry
I had to miss part of the question can you repeat it div
if realism is not shunned so when realism isn't shunned when
in a fan fiction should it it be
realism is not shun should it be
30 seconds let's come back to you Dove of malware yeah that's
kind of confused about the question well maybe hearing
someone else answer will trigger something for you Mel you think
think
well the moment that you start giving that example I started
losing my train of thought
I really can't think of a situation where it should or
should not be if that is where you're going with this I'm kind
of walk down your same tracks of thought here and I'm I'm not I
don't think we're linking up as far as what
you're questioning okay so did anybody else have trouble
understanding the question do I need to try to rephrase it
that might actually something all right let's hear what you've
got Kyle I guess sort of should it be when it's in
when the writing is just incompetent and oh it's
realistic is being used as a shield like okay a very minor
example in the
fan fiction thing I mentioned or another thing that I found like
kind of taking this from fanfiction to video
games and the whole idea of
of miss same dream realism yes weapons degrade with prolonged
use but a length of tempered metal doesn't shatter and like
after hitting something three times that's just dumb that's
not actually realistic
stop saying it is no think I got it said Jim Sterling I
totally don't all TV Tropes page up for that to get a good quote
Dev what were you about to say so I think I got so like again
yeah it does come down to like whether or not like I guess is
realism being used as a shield or is it as use being used as an
excuse so like I think getting many example
I've made up example I can give is like
are these why are these characters acting like this oh
it's realistic but then like you should say is it realistic for
them or is a realistic for like just like a normal reaction
there and was this just made to be more like gritty or something
excuse me mate to me more gritty
and DJ what do you think
um they basically hit it on the head there again but I
suppose I would say it shouldn't be shunned since as you brought
up several times a lot of
this is is taste and subjective so it will always depend on
the reader and sure the writers can always improve their stuff
but there's going to be a
reader for almost every piece of fiction fiction so it's what I
would have to say is don't let your
old subjective taste tell other people what they should be
writing or how they should be be writing all right does anybody
have anything
they want to add or take away from that before we move on well
I guess maybe
let's hear it going back to What DJ does Sammy that you know
don't let one person to find what you are doing on your other
and I mean when it comes to presenting the kind of
situation that may be seen as
unrealistic or something that should be it should should
be taken into account where are we we we have tools at our
disposal
that show yeah this is not supposed to be in your primary
setting this is not
supposed to be you know you
set things up like that as the author in this case you put tags
up there you let people know what they're going to be reading
it comes with the synopsis I mean it's depth
I don't think it should be something that should be
immediately immediately shun No all right I think I got one more
thing
to add actually yeah go for it I don't think realism sure ever be
shunned like even if like try to think key things grounded in the
reality you made it always have a standard like they even the
most fantastic like
even friendship is magic set some like rules and all that
because if you don't have rules then you don't really have
conflict right
right
all right I don't have a problem with that is and with even
though that might be kind of off topic is it's not exactly
realism it I think it does like like comment tangentially relate
all right so let's move on to the audience participation
section
here so in case this is your first time tuning in I have been
keeping my eye on the chat to the best of my
ability and writing down any questions or comments that I
thought was interesting tonight I got a short list only only
three but maybe some of my co-hosts here have have found
something that I that I didn't so
starting with
Jonah Jonah Tex hex so he says depending on the genre of
fiction in some cases reality or realism can be used as long
as you're not beating the reader over the head with it what do we
think about that that gentleman I think that basically sums up
like the difference between like
a torture torture porn or like a just a
grounded in reality story you know the I'm not sure what the
other
like torture porn versus whatever I said before they
let's see let's say we remade Harry Potter but now Harry
Potter is realistic and everybody carries guns
happy Netflix Sabrina the Teenage Witch series I might
actually watch that
I personally don't need to watch satanism oh my God Kyle that was
the heaviest I've ever heard of my life tell me what's on here
that it was all the way over here I felt that tell me what's
on your mind I guess just yeah
even in your even in the super dark really gritty thing there's
there's always
going to be a line I mean for Pete's sake even
even amongst freaking the darkest dark to ever dark there
still a point where the fans are just like this is just stupid
stupid yeah and then they and then they set up the table for
another game yep
all right Eliza
with the minis
luciola not says what would it have added to the story if they
did go into detail about
Apple Jacks parents and how they died I like that who is this
person oh you were
joking subtlety
for those who for those who are not who aren't in the circle
jerk here
Alicia is another is another one of my patrons and also you know
for friends with Kyle and Malin we know her very well all right
so
um wants to to field that question what would have added
to what
would it have added to the story if we knew exactly how Apple
Jacks parents died well I think on its own it would it add
anything but the fact that they
start touching it and then maybe have a story revolving around
how they got
over it or are coping with it but be another thing hmm well I
think we already had that episode episode
which episode was that was that are you just saying that
officially introduced that was them
moving on because they needed to understand their parents their
death
wasn't wasn't what made them special it was
who they were interesting oh that's so romantic
well romance is realistic to romance yes it is - and I don't
know what kind of sad world
you live in Malibu but it does exist come back to the
real world you know no I guess some if we were to find out what
exactly
had happened to ages parents I think it would have possibly
enriched AJ in my personal opinion I'd like to
know what she has gone through what shape you're in to be what
she is now so there's a
lot of implied but you can only apply so much without your mind
making it up yourself
all right and does anybody else want to want to feel the
question before we move on or on the our excuse me I'd if I know
what I mean there are certain things that she does during
the you know during the whole run of the series that we don't
really
we don't really see fleshed out things she refers to I mean
even the that whenever she looks into the mirror she's seen you
know basically your mother and she she
doesn't get really sad about that right now I got you
right sorry if it seemed like I tried to cut you off there
okay so Pony Cordero says cynicism
speaks to expectations of outcomes were realism speaks to
probability of outcomes optimism is equally realistic as
synthesis
all about perspective and presentation
oh that's good I like that I need a shirt that says that all
right well I'll be sure to save
that yeah that's that's good yeah please keep that I like
that all right
and we'll Black Card says hi brawny I love your streams well
thank you for tuning in and the last one on my list here Alexa
Miss Prime says can we name
any thin fiction authors who don't make their fix
to realistic and or gritty and tend to write in the show style
so DJ do you have any
suggestions for us show style thin fiction writers
all the worst one that I was getting back into the story is
called living in Equestria by Blaze wing all right
it's a pretty it's just a basic down to down to a slice of life
story where
the human is up in equestrian H is just goes about his daily
life of adapting to a new world the conflict is just your
everyday neighbors and stuff there's no like super action
conflicts of
fantasy galore just as guy living in Equestria
having to adjust I'm gonna recommend a story that I'm
reading right
now that's not completed but argon
Matrix is writing a story called trip the light Scholastic
it was recommended on Equestria daily a few weeks ago and I find
it to be pretty accurate to the show style and actually takes a
lot
of inspiration for the story from obscure
lore from Friendship is Magic and I'm posting a link in the in
the
chat right now to that story so there's a there's a show style
author for you Kyle Kyle are you familiar with any
fan fiction authors that might meet this criteria
not really shows stop okay I don't know if I would go so far
as to call it show style but one thing is well anything by Naval
cult though like his main story is King of the
love bugs it's basically just thorax and the rest of the
changeling Hive just going about the process of well
we're good now we have a lot of stuff to
rebuild a whole society I ate a restart and international
relations to
make I mean the author by his own admission the plot is just
an excuse for us to get from one Q scene to the next but
there is still still plot all righty then yeah I like that yep
Dov how about you you
Eva leave it or not I don't really have one because most of
the fanfiction I peruse I tend to look
in the teen rating so not exactly the show style the the
closest I really find myself coming back to some of the lunar
verse ones where the premises that you have Princess Luna
banished Celestia instead and then you have
Trixie and some other characters as the new main
six they're like there are some ones
ones are our slice of life definitely tend to like bring up
topics that don't come up in Friendship is Magic the
political side
and all that so well Godly we're leaving now this is where this
is where the the way that I manage my film fiction favorites
becomes a problem because I favored stories when I like them
and they're not completed and
then when they become completed I'm like that was a nice read if
I really really liked it I liked put it in the list somewhere
else but otherwise I've I've removed from the favorites it's
but I can tell you this I've read I've read a hundred fin
fictions where it felt just like the show for like 90 percent of
it and then all of a sudden
randomly somewhere like Pinkie will drop an F-bomb bomb and
then I have to wear a neck brace to work the next day from the
whiplash yeah that that
I've watched that episode I mean that yet
yeah it's
happened to everybody you're reading you're reading although
this is super in character this is you know this could be an
episode all of a sudden someone starts swearing or suddenly
Fluttershy's a stoner it's like okay okay okay
there was that one time that you would and then they were real to
us in The voice chat and did this on purpose lately
forgot about that okay so so if you
no there is a story was written back in I think 2012 and it's
great to do a dramatic reading of this cold ice I've wanted to
for as long as there's there's another I've wanted to do a
dramatic reading of
Twilight punches flesh Century in the face as well but which is
why I like this title already it's an amazing story but anyway
there's a there's a story called if if they were real real and
this is the the penultimate realism and I can't believe I
didn't think about it until just now but it's the main six given
given know like
descriptions they're not even colored they are literally
horses just hanging out in a pasture oh my God
now and it takes and in the last I think 50
words
and that like it's a it's a it's a a couple of
in words long and in the last like hundred words it is not
trust such a don't you spoil it I want everybody watching this
the show tonight to go to click out of here and read this
story if they were real and and yet in the last hundred words it
takes the worst turn you could possibly think of and it I don't
even think you could possibly think of how bad this turn was
but it was it was something else
else somebody Pony Cordero says that was going to be the
first episode of season 10 pinky says the f word you know
something that's actually a story though there is a fan
fiction called pinky says the f word and it's pretty bad it
seems so in character for her because she's off the walls all
the time yeah
well we do know she's the only one that's done the F-word
canonically I can I can see this working as I can a fanfiction
building up to it and then she says like just just French
fudge and then goes to eat some chocolate yeah let's see here
okay
so does anybody else actually found a question I thought was
interesting
yeah let's hear a Dev how did in Pony T hey Chad what does the
movies are dark but good and which are trying to be dark and
end up bad
well that's loaded well I think it does kind
of I know it's loaded I still think it's interesting like
what's the difference between one
we say let's change it around a little let's say it's realistic
but still good but trying to be too realistic valenza
bad or even just trying to guess be gritty or whatever I think
know no my head hurts
but I do think it's interesting cuz like the prime example I
think eyes so dark but good as Hunter of Notre Dame
yeah because like okay yeah I would agree with that
I don't know about dark and the Babbitt like I don't know the
prime example but I think a recent example for me would be
Toy Story 4 because it tries to bring up all these darker
implications about being a toy and has these creepy scenes but
I feel like all
of the story in between is so contrived and stuff that it's
like okay whatever just do what you want me to bring something
very good good point oh what is the point point then the point
is that not everything can be
sunshine and rainbows rainbows did we need a whole movie for
this after such an excellent trilogy not necessarily I will
agree with you on that
it was a bit long in the tooth you could easily done that with
maybe a 30
minute are a Target area answered that with the
first movie so it for that matter the third one he became
very yeah yeah it started being introduced to I mean you had the
Governor from The Walking Dead for God's sake I mean mean
I'm thing I've got the The NeverEnding Story in my head for
for four darken good look like big strong
hands hands yeah and but as for is for
dark in bed I'd say 99% of the
horror movie genre fight me I State your I still get upset at
that
horse in the swamp I do 90%
90%
yep
I said I said he's had 99% yeah 99% wow yeah which is only which
is only a slightly better
percentage than rap music again guess there's no
argument there not here but I'll hear about it my comments yeah
starts rapping there's the exception oh so he's always a
good rapper because he's white I see how it is
it's a sad reality reality that
is that is something there to consider but I think unless
somebody else has a question that they wanted to field from
the chat I think we are out
I think I had fun I think I saw one comment that needed to be
addressed tell me
me from Pony Cordero the length of this live stream is not very
realistic aw we're in a perfectly reasonable average
runtime
runtime all right I'm sad now
and he wants me to bring him on for the rep is
rap crap stream and I'm sure he's got some crap yeah he's got
some he's got some
opinions on that I happen to know so yeah that did that
should be interesting but I think now
is a good time to wrap it up don't you think gentlemen I
would say there's nothing left all right so real quick real
quick let's go around the table here um did we learn
anything
anything tonight well
I think you will learn quite a few things oh I see what you
mean no no all theories of 5 seriousness now um yeah
taking in these different perspectives and watching your
chat stream through here which by the way trying to listen to
you guys and read this is
quite a
challenge I don't know how you do it I think I've come away
from this with a better understanding of what people may
have originally thought and what some of their
their expectations still be right now so I think I've
actually grown from some of this so I do appreciate that this was
a wonderful wonderful stream
well thank you for suggesting the topic and yes I will say
this reading the chat and listening at the same time is
very difficult I can attribute that to at least 50% of my
stuttering tonight tonight anyway Dev did you learn
anything anything I learned that like we really need to I feel
like like everywhere
we need to make sure that we Define our definitions because I
have a lot of it does come down to
cement has been complaining like different topics for one another
because we
start out with that guy that brought off the stern to
disbelieve and then there was like grittiness and an execution
and all that all righty then Kyle how about
you Blair and I need to remind brawny that he has a picture of
my actual OC as opposed to the America shield
shield wow way to call me out in the middle of a stream like that
in front of 20 people maybe
we had 15 minutes
where you knew what the
tree before we went live where you hear what the fun nail looks
like and you could have told me
at first I thought just didn't put me in here because it
Blended in with your background picture this got pointed out
when I shared this to some friends friends for god sakes
this mean box are you saying you didn't put them on there because
he didn't it's not funny DJ stop laughing
I can't why can't put them
on here he doesn't even match with the background I'm not know
was with this Shield here yeah that's it
I'm gonna need a shield to protect me from all this
black DJ what did you learn
tonight save me I can't
Your Grave is Doug
all right so in that case thanks for everybody for coming onto
the stream tonight I hope you had fun
it certainly sounds like we did it specially in those last
couple of minutes here oh yeah I know that made everything
I had that you could just tune in for that folks
I mean that was about and right so as well as in the chat thank
U for
interacting with us and leaving your suggestions thank you for
watching I hope you had fun as well I am extremely grateful to
all of my very generous patreon supporters especially those on
the $10 and
up tier three of which have have just spent the last five minutes
making fun of me they are Kyle Christensen DJ Skywalker
malcontents of the equestrian City here over series as well as
Princess Heather Blossom Shady Oak Ministry said Conroy
Auto night Emerald Spencer sodden girder Cinco Janine
Kellogg Stephen A Wilson wreck rain princess Sunshine sparkled
bootleg barred and the silly frog
Zoroark 720 if you would like to be on the show I would love to
have you
we just need to get you you on the page and into the patreon
server for as little as a dollar a month if you want to see more
of my live streams tomorrow night so Friday at
7 o'clock p.m. Eastern Standard Time we're doing another Friday
Night Fights will be playing Team Fortress
2 tomorrow so that should be that should be fun and and on
Saturday
night at ten o'clock p.m. Eastern Standard Time I read the
chat for princess Heather
blossoms chaos and crocheting so be sure to tune into that and
then next Friday we've got another brownie debates alive
hopefully I'll have my act together that week a little bit
more than I did today and with that said
have a great night everybody stay safe
out there but I am doing yep say good night everyone everyone
everyone get up can I crazy and